Postmodern Critic
Morgan Bell
Jeff MusallDoes asking for tolerance discriminate against Christians?
June 18th 2008 11:35
In the USA some Christian's feel that modern anti-discrimination laws impose on their religious freedom. But what is religious freedom? Religious people should be able to go to work without persecution for their beliefs but does that exempt Christians from having to show respect and tolerance to others in the workplace? Does being Christian exempt health workers from providing timely care?
Some Christian groups oppose the "Access to Birth Control (ABC) Act" as they claim it discriminates against Pharmacists who have religious beliefs which are opposed to dispensing contraception. Under the legeslation, pharmacies would be required to make sure there are no delays in getting birth control drugs or the morning after pill to customers - drugs must be dispensed "without delay." If the pills are out of stock, pharmacies would be forced to order them or refer customers to drug stores that have them on hand. Pro-life groups say the legislation deliberately attacks pharmacists who exercise professional moral judgment and tramples on any professional or ethical concerns. The measure requires pharmacists to not "intimidate, threaten, or harass customers in the delivery of services relating to a request for contraception" or "interfere with or obstruct the delivery of services relating to a request for contraception."
Giving pharmacists the authority not to fill prescriptions based on their personal beliefs could cause hardship for patients because of the limited number of pharmacies in rural areas.
But does requiring pharmacists to dispense medication they find morally objectionable violate their rights to the free exercise of religion? Or are religious objections secondary to a woman's right to receive an approved prescription in a timely manner?
Denton, Texas, Eckerd Corp. fired three pharmacists who declined to fill an emergency contraception prescription for a woman who had been raped. Gene Herr said he declined to fill the prescription for the "morning-after pill" because he believes it could have killed the embryo if the woman already had conceived. Though he had declined five or six times in the past to fill such prescriptions, it was the first time he had been handed one for a rape victim. The two other pharmacists who were present also declined to fill the prescription. Eckerd's employment manual says pharmacists are not allowed to opt out of filling a prescription for religious, moral or ethical reasons.
Pharmacists for Life president Karen Brauer was fired by a Kmart pharmacy in Ohio for refusing to fill birth control prescriptions. She is suing Kmart saying "On December 19, 1996, I was fired from my position as a pharmacist with the KMart Corporation for refusal to dispense Micronor, a progestin-only "minipill", for the purpose of birth control."
Vander Bleek, owner of Fitzgerald Pharmacy in Morrison and part-owner of two pharmacies in DeKalb County, filed a suit 2005, seeking an injunction against Gov. Rod Blagojevich's emergency rule requiring all pharmacies that dispense contraceptives to make Plan B available. He was joined in the petition by his wife, Joan, and three other Illinois pharmacy owners. The suit contends the rule violates the Illinois Health Care Right of Conscience Act by compelling pharmacy owners who do not want to carry the drug to act against their ethical and moral beliefs in dispensing them.
Conscience Clauses are clauses in laws in some parts of the United States which permit pharmacists, physicians, and other providers of health care not to provide certain medical services for reasons of religion or conscience. Those who choose not to provide services may not be disciplined or discriminated against. The provision is most frequently enacted in connection with issues relating to reproduction, such as abortion, sterilization, and contraception, but may include any phase of patient care.
Conscience Clauses have been adopted by a number of U.S. states. including Arkansas, Illinois, Indiana, Iowa, Kansas, Kentucky, Louisiana, Maine, Maryland, Massachusetts, Michigan, Mississippi, Pennsylvania, and South Dakota.
Really Long Link
Conscience Clauses, although allowing medical professionals not to perform procedures against their conscience, does not allow professionals to give fradulent information to deter a patient from obtaining such a procedure (such as lying about the risks involved in an abortion to deter one from obtaining one) in order to imposing one's belief using deception.
Christian advocacy group Focus On The Family Action claim laws like the Employment Non-Discrimination Act (ENDA) and other Sexual Orientation Nondiscrimination Laws can harm businesses with Christian employees.
A California software maker was forced to pay a settlement and legal fees totaling over $1 million because the company did not promote a man who had come to work dressed as a woman. The “victim” sued under California’s sexual orientation nondiscrimination law. As legal fees escalated, the company finally settled out of court.
Oakland, California, city employees Regina Rederford and Robin Christy formed a group called the "Good News Employee Association" and posted a flier on a company bulletin board advertising a "forum for people of faith to express their views on contemporary issues of the day, with respect for the natural family, marriage and family values." After a lesbian employee complained of being offended by the flier, the city removed the flier and threatened the two women with adverse employment action for placing the fliers "in public view which contained statements of a homophobic nature and were determined to promote sexual orientation based harassment." A federal court upheld the city's action.
AT&T employee in Denver fired for refusing to sign company-required pledge to recognize,
respect and value sexual orientation differences within the company. In 2001 the employee was required to sign a new AT&T Broadband Employee Handbook with policies that conflicted with his religious beliefs by condoning the homosexual lifestyle. After notifying his supervisor that based on his religious beliefs he could not sign the certificate of understanding, he was fired.
Madison, Wisconsin, a Christian firefighter Ron Greer was suspended for handing out tract entitled “The truth about homosexuality." He was suspended and ordered to attend diversity training for violating the city's anti-discrimination code and nearly lost his job.
Debra Kelly, a former hospice worker in Philadelphia, was fired for expressing her Christian beliefs about homosexuality. Her gay supervisor, a supporter of ACT-UP, said Kelly was intolerant and unsuited for her position.
At Hewlett Packard’s plant in Boise, Idaho, an employee with a 21-year record of meeting or
exceeding expectations was fired for refusing to remove Bible verses about homosexuality
from his cubicle. The employee allegedly posted the Bible verses in response to a poster near his cubicle that he perceived to be promoting GLBT relationships. HP openly admitted that its reasoning for firing the employee was “his overt opposition to HP’s Diversity Advertising Campaign.”
Michael Hartman was employed by the Red Cross in San Diego. The company sent a mass e-mail to all employees in 2005 promoting "Gay and Lesbian Pride Month," urging them to "observe" the celebration. Hartman, a Christian, communicated his religious objections to his supervisors and was promptly called in and told his communication was "inappropriate." Hartmann was fired.
Focus On Family Action's Citizenlink
http://www.citizenlink.org/
Concerned Women for America
http://www.cwfa.org/main.asp
Jews defending the first ammendment
http://www.jewsonfirst.org/
Some Christian groups oppose the "Access to Birth Control (ABC) Act" as they claim it discriminates against Pharmacists who have religious beliefs which are opposed to dispensing contraception. Under the legeslation, pharmacies would be required to make sure there are no delays in getting birth control drugs or the morning after pill to customers - drugs must be dispensed "without delay." If the pills are out of stock, pharmacies would be forced to order them or refer customers to drug stores that have them on hand. Pro-life groups say the legislation deliberately attacks pharmacists who exercise professional moral judgment and tramples on any professional or ethical concerns. The measure requires pharmacists to not "intimidate, threaten, or harass customers in the delivery of services relating to a request for contraception" or "interfere with or obstruct the delivery of services relating to a request for contraception."
Giving pharmacists the authority not to fill prescriptions based on their personal beliefs could cause hardship for patients because of the limited number of pharmacies in rural areas.
But does requiring pharmacists to dispense medication they find morally objectionable violate their rights to the free exercise of religion? Or are religious objections secondary to a woman's right to receive an approved prescription in a timely manner?
Denton, Texas, Eckerd Corp. fired three pharmacists who declined to fill an emergency contraception prescription for a woman who had been raped. Gene Herr said he declined to fill the prescription for the "morning-after pill" because he believes it could have killed the embryo if the woman already had conceived. Though he had declined five or six times in the past to fill such prescriptions, it was the first time he had been handed one for a rape victim. The two other pharmacists who were present also declined to fill the prescription. Eckerd's employment manual says pharmacists are not allowed to opt out of filling a prescription for religious, moral or ethical reasons.
Pharmacists for Life president Karen Brauer was fired by a Kmart pharmacy in Ohio for refusing to fill birth control prescriptions. She is suing Kmart saying "On December 19, 1996, I was fired from my position as a pharmacist with the KMart Corporation for refusal to dispense Micronor, a progestin-only "minipill", for the purpose of birth control."
Vander Bleek, owner of Fitzgerald Pharmacy in Morrison and part-owner of two pharmacies in DeKalb County, filed a suit 2005, seeking an injunction against Gov. Rod Blagojevich's emergency rule requiring all pharmacies that dispense contraceptives to make Plan B available. He was joined in the petition by his wife, Joan, and three other Illinois pharmacy owners. The suit contends the rule violates the Illinois Health Care Right of Conscience Act by compelling pharmacy owners who do not want to carry the drug to act against their ethical and moral beliefs in dispensing them.
Conscience Clauses are clauses in laws in some parts of the United States which permit pharmacists, physicians, and other providers of health care not to provide certain medical services for reasons of religion or conscience. Those who choose not to provide services may not be disciplined or discriminated against. The provision is most frequently enacted in connection with issues relating to reproduction, such as abortion, sterilization, and contraception, but may include any phase of patient care.
Conscience Clauses have been adopted by a number of U.S. states. including Arkansas, Illinois, Indiana, Iowa, Kansas, Kentucky, Louisiana, Maine, Maryland, Massachusetts, Michigan, Mississippi, Pennsylvania, and South Dakota.
Really Long Link
Conscience Clauses, although allowing medical professionals not to perform procedures against their conscience, does not allow professionals to give fradulent information to deter a patient from obtaining such a procedure (such as lying about the risks involved in an abortion to deter one from obtaining one) in order to imposing one's belief using deception.
Christian advocacy group Focus On The Family Action claim laws like the Employment Non-Discrimination Act (ENDA) and other Sexual Orientation Nondiscrimination Laws can harm businesses with Christian employees.
A California software maker was forced to pay a settlement and legal fees totaling over $1 million because the company did not promote a man who had come to work dressed as a woman. The “victim” sued under California’s sexual orientation nondiscrimination law. As legal fees escalated, the company finally settled out of court.
Oakland, California, city employees Regina Rederford and Robin Christy formed a group called the "Good News Employee Association" and posted a flier on a company bulletin board advertising a "forum for people of faith to express their views on contemporary issues of the day, with respect for the natural family, marriage and family values." After a lesbian employee complained of being offended by the flier, the city removed the flier and threatened the two women with adverse employment action for placing the fliers "in public view which contained statements of a homophobic nature and were determined to promote sexual orientation based harassment." A federal court upheld the city's action.
AT&T employee in Denver fired for refusing to sign company-required pledge to recognize,
respect and value sexual orientation differences within the company. In 2001 the employee was required to sign a new AT&T Broadband Employee Handbook with policies that conflicted with his religious beliefs by condoning the homosexual lifestyle. After notifying his supervisor that based on his religious beliefs he could not sign the certificate of understanding, he was fired.
Madison, Wisconsin, a Christian firefighter Ron Greer was suspended for handing out tract entitled “The truth about homosexuality." He was suspended and ordered to attend diversity training for violating the city's anti-discrimination code and nearly lost his job.
Debra Kelly, a former hospice worker in Philadelphia, was fired for expressing her Christian beliefs about homosexuality. Her gay supervisor, a supporter of ACT-UP, said Kelly was intolerant and unsuited for her position.
At Hewlett Packard’s plant in Boise, Idaho, an employee with a 21-year record of meeting or
exceeding expectations was fired for refusing to remove Bible verses about homosexuality
from his cubicle. The employee allegedly posted the Bible verses in response to a poster near his cubicle that he perceived to be promoting GLBT relationships. HP openly admitted that its reasoning for firing the employee was “his overt opposition to HP’s Diversity Advertising Campaign.”
Michael Hartman was employed by the Red Cross in San Diego. The company sent a mass e-mail to all employees in 2005 promoting "Gay and Lesbian Pride Month," urging them to "observe" the celebration. Hartman, a Christian, communicated his religious objections to his supervisors and was promptly called in and told his communication was "inappropriate." Hartmann was fired.
Focus On Family Action's Citizenlink
http://www.citizenlink.org/
Concerned Women for America
http://www.cwfa.org/main.asp
Jews defending the first ammendment
http://www.jewsonfirst.org/
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Comment by RubySoho
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theres whole websites set up dedicated to Christians banding together because they feel that allowing others to have rights directly impacts on their rights . . . and apparently Christians are getting fired and reprimanded willy nilly because they feel they cannot perform their duties and be in accordance within their church/bible guidelines
Comment by RubySoho
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Seriously, if a non-religious person says they hate gays we would not tolerate it...but if it's a Christian, oh well that's okay...it's their religion....we have to respect it. Well I don't.
That rape victim had her rights trampled upon twice. Once by her rapist and the second time by that heartless pharmacist who thought their own morals came before her right to health care, not to mention her right to decide what she wants to do with her body.
And some Christians have the nerve to criticise those Muslim taxi drivers in America who refuse to pick up passengers who are carrying or smell of alcohol.
They are all mental. I've seriously had it with the lot of them.
Comment by Morgan Bell
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i feel sorry for people that are actually getting fired because they dont understand the difference between having the right to be a certain way and having the right to stop others from being a certain way
the difference between GLBT posters and anti-homosexual bible passages is that the posters dont assert there is only one correct type of lifestyle at the exclusion of others
if your boss said you had to be gay to get a promotion then yes that would be discrimination, or if he insisted female staff had to take the pill to work there then yes that is discrimination again
if your boss doesnt cater for your religious dietary requirements at compulsary work functions then that is discrimination
if your boss asks you to comply with your job description and not marginalise and be unpleasant towards minorities . . . well . . . i dont know . . . what would jesus do?
Comment by Summer
It is the ultimate victim mentality. If someone so much as sneezes wrong they are up in arms about being persecuted for their beliefs.
Comment by Jeff Musall
Secular Humanity
I first heard this at about 11 years old and remember thinking that god must be pretty awesome. Of course, I learned better. But still, I have heard this story repeated as fact, even by one of my sisters - and, unfortunately, her children.
Comment by Morgan Bell
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you raise an excellent point, Christians have the religious holidays of Christmas and Easter accepted and recognised and workplaces observe that celebration, the same should apply for any other religion, ethnic, or cultural group
there is a difference between things that affect you personally and things that stop you from "spreading the word"
hi Jeff,
Jews On First was an anti-christian-fundamentalist site with fairly unbiased info, CWFA and Focus On Family Action were extremely conservative far right, and theres some wikipedia info mixed in
of the ENDA examples, the first one was originally reported in this brochure "The Other Side Of Tolerance'
Really Long Link
the second example is confirmed here
Really Long Link
the AT&T example was a man called Albert Buonanno who later sued and was awarded $146,269 for lost salary and benefits and compensation for emotional distress but was not reinstated
Really Long Link
apparently Ron Greer was eventually fired for continued insubordination
Really Long Link
apparently part of Debra Kelly's job as a hospice worker was to work with AIDS patients "the supervisor claimed that she wasn't qualified to work with AIDS patients. Her discrimination suit was settled out-of-court"
Really Long Link
the michael hartman case is widely reported on christian news sites
Really Long Link
i think they all happened its just a matter of how vitimised the people come across depending on the source . . .
Comment by Anne Tootill
Comment by Morgan Bell
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thanks for the comment
to death? haha
you sound pretty scared!
i think women have a right to be personally pro-life (meaning they adhere to their religion by not undergoing an abortion or using contraception themselves) just as they have a right to refuse blood transfusions or any medical treatments . . . but i dont think that right extends to dictating to others how to live or preventing others from having access to treatments
Comment by KylieW
Celebrity Obsession
And as for those pharmacists who refused to give contraception to that rape victim......what f**kwits! That poor woman, as if she hadnt suffered enough trauma already!
We all have to be tolerant of one another. That means putting up with people/actions that don't always fit with our belief systems. That's life. Everyone has to do it. Why should people change just because YOU think they should?
Your post is just one of the many reasons why I have a real problem with religion (all religions).
Very informative and well written post too! Excellent work
Kylie
Comment by Johnny Come Lately
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Comment by Morgan Bell
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thanks for commenting with your opinions, i think you have raised some important points
i was trying to present both sides of the argument without too much of my own opinion so much of the information is directly from religious websites in an attempt to understand them better
it must be very difficult for modern Christians to understand the basic principles of discrimination when there are contradictory laws in place and the Pope himself instructing Catholics not to dispense the morning-after-pill (Plan B) . . . if the Pope and the lawmakers exempt people from basic human decency then what hope does the average joe blow have?
if the laws change will devout religious people eventually have to limit themselves to only working in fields that will not challenge their beliefs?
we live in interesting times . . .
Comment by Morgan Bell
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spooky, we were both thinking the same thing!
see there was a time (perhaps we are still in that time) where the medical profession was dictated to by the Church and people took on those careers believing things would never change, so i have sympathy for the old dinosaurs of the pharmacy industry but while their are Conscience Clauses they feel justified
as a counter example do we see homosexual Pharmacists refusing to dispense contraceptives because they dont want to promote the heterosexual lifestyle?
in these modern times it is becoming increasingly hard for Christians to segregate themselves from gays and women as collegues and clients and there are so many sources that encourage their intolerance by telling them that they dont have to keep their religion to themselves . . . infact some Christians think that it is a "sin" to allow to commit "sins" and it is their ethical and moral duty to point it out . . . some Christians may even be actively seeking out medical careers to spread the word of their religion?
Comment by Ahmed
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Just saying...
Comment by Morgan Bell
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what are the basic principles of humanity and who decides on them?
(dont worry PoMo is away, this post isnt aimed at you or anyone else, i am genuinely interested in the flipside of the argument)
Comment by Ahmed
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However to some, that's intolerance.
Variety makes people, questioning that variety is like saying we're not different, it's discriminating the very basics of what makes us human.
Comment by Morgan Bell
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that is very true, variety does make people . . . i think it is ok to question why we are different, just not to exclude people who are different
Comment by Brenton
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My temptation is more to secretly serve a copy of Pilger but I perform the job.
Comment by Morgan Bell
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great analogy!
(i take it you mean the conservative Liberal Party in Australia ie Howard, not the little "l" liberals?)
quite a few vegetarians i know have worked for Pizza Hut and MacDonalds, it is possible to serve a product without consuming it
oh and Ruby,
i found this interesting article by a Muslim writer condemning cab drivers that refuse to pick up customers carrying alcohol
Really Long Link
and some Muslim elders condemning younger people who refuse to handle alcoholic products in retail stores
Really Long Link
Comment by Doug Pollard
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Comment by Ahmed
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They missed the mark, by a few miles.
If you don't believe in drinking alcohol don't work at a company that sells it. Don't go against your principles and sell it but don't work there.
With cab drivers, if you own the cab, that is, it's your business then it's your right to refuse anyone you want. However if you are working for someone then it isn't your right, if you don't want guide dogs in your cab don't work as a cabbie.
What's really ridiculous about the alcohol thing is they're working at an organization which sells it, irrespective of whether or not they have a direct hand in making the checkout they work directly with it at a retail level. *sigh* I wish people could follow through with all t heir principle, not just the parts that is convenient for htem to.
Comment by Morgan Bell
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thanks for your comment
"respect and tolerance is a two way street" i think perhaps you have identified the crux of the whole problem
hi Ahmed,
that is a very similar attitude to what Johnny Come Lately expressed in the comments a little further up: the question of should someone even work for an outlet that sells products or services against their beliefs?
perhaps not just a religious issue but an ethical one for individuals . . . should the onus be on the individual to be responsible for where they choose to work?
would it be fair for someone to accept a position at mining or logging or cigarrette companies and then refuse to sell the products without being fired because of a Conscience Clause?
regarding the taxi issue:
is refusing service to someone based on the fact that they are carrying alcohol any different to refusing service to someone based on race, gender, sexuality, or disability?
taxi drivers i have spoken to in Sydney consider themselves to be part of the public transport system with access to bus lanes and transit lanes etc so i personally think they should only refuse service to people if they fear their own safety rather than making value judgements on the type of customer
(it might be a different scenario in other states or the USA)
Comment by Ahmed
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lying pricks...
Comment by Brenton
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Comment by Morgan Bell
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hahaha maybe i was getting fed the official press release?
hi Brenton,
ahhh i thought as much
Comment by RubySoho
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.
Comment by Morgan Bell
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yeah the whole article was very interesting, i would encourage everyone to read it to get a different perspective . . . i should have known you would have been way ahead of me on the political news! haha
Comment by RubySoho
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i first came across Kahn about six months ago when I was having a "debate" with a conservative about Israel and Islam. She was on her high horse about how all the smart and moderate Muslims were pro-Israel and how I knew nothing about Islam and what an evil religion it is and do I think I know more than Muqtader Kahn? So she gave me a link to his site and the first thing I read was about how Israel's actions in the 2006 war with Hezebollah increased the popularity of Hezebollah and how that and other terrorist groups were motivated by politics more so than religion, which is pretty much what I had been arguing all along.
When I told her that she admitted that she had never actually read his articles. Just assumed that because he was religiously moderate and smart and respected then he was automatically a conservative.
Comment by Morgan Bell
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yeah the second link was about employees in the UK, i thought it was fairly impressive that senior Muslims basiclly said that employees should re-examine the allowances of their religion rather than making things difficult for the workplace and mis-using or exploiting any goodwill towards the Muslim community
isnt it funny when people give you links to things that actually prove them wrong haha
does anyone else have any examples where jewish or buddists or hinduist or any other religion or group with special needs are exempted from workplace tasks, responsibilities or policies?
particularly with reference to discrimination . . .
Comment by Cathy
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Great post!
Comment by Doug Pollard
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Freshly Doug
Comment by Jeff Musall
Secular Humanity
On another note, here is an example of religious zealotry that kills. Here in Oregon there is one of those christian sects who don't believe anyone but god can heal. A 16 year old boy died last week, his body poisoned by his own urine that he couldn't expel because of a simple obstruction that could have been easily treated. A few months ago a young little girl died from a different easily cured illness. Thanks to a recent change in the law, the parents of the young girl will have to face a day in court. For the 16 year old, no such chance. The law allows anyone over 12 to refuse medical treatment. He listened to his parents and his miserable church who told him gold would take care of him. That's "faith" for you.
Comment by RubySoho
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Sorry, awful story but great typo.
Comment by Breaking News
Fallacy of Association.
Fallacy of Ad Hominem Attacks.
Research, understand and grow.
Comment by Jeff Musall
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Comment by Ahmed
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haha, I remember my dad saying how back when he was schooling in Iraq Christians got the Christian and Islamic holidays off.
He never said it was unfair though XD
Comment by Morgan Bell
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thanks for the comment
you must hear alot of interesting stories working in equal rights!
hi Doug
extra holidays! haha
well i guess that doesnt really impact directly on anyone else . . . except to raise our jealousy levels! lol
hi Jeff
as an atheist i have always found Christian holidays fairly pointless for non-believers . . . i understand people of faith may use the day to attend a church service and the gifts and other traditions actually represent something to them . . . but for everyone else it has just become materialistic family barbeque day, completely devoid of its original religious meaning
that was a heartbreaking story about the little boy, adults should have the right to refuse medical treatments but it really does raise the question of whether kids living with religious parents are really in a position to make an informed decision
Ruby,
are you baiting my readers? hahaha
hi Breaking News,
were that comment in regards to anything in particular?
Comment by RubySoho
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Besides, you gotta admit, it is a great typo.
Comment by Morgan Bell
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Ruby,
gold, god, golden god, godly gold . . . oldly dog, goodly odd . . . wheres mountain fog? he would LOVE this stuff!
Comment by RubySoho
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I am a golden god!
Fog is bust celebrating his first Orble birthday....
Comment by Morgan Bell
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does a list of logical fallacies sound familiar to me?
or were you referring to the cryptic, highly ambiguous delivery?
haha it does slightly resemble at least one self-appointed intellectual i can think of . . . but it may all be coincidence as i dont even know what that comment was in reference to?
the mysteries of orble!
Comment by RubySoho
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well it starts off with the "fallacy of composition' so one can reasonably assume it is directed at you. oh no, is there a "fallacy of assumption"? or is assumption the mother of all stuff-ups perhaps?
if it is a coincidence, its a bloody big and highly amusing one.
thanks for the laugh breaking news!
Comment by Morgan Bell
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is this the point where i am supposed to demand credentials and dismiss everything that contradicts my opinions as sementics? hahaha
cos i just dont know if i can be quite that pompous
yes thankyou for the entertainment Breaking News, you have a doppleganger out there on orble
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Comment by postmoderncritic
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Padsoc
Comment by Ahmed
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oh right, the brave battler, PMC, here to impart her wisdom and 'expose' me for what an evil person I am -_-
Watch as she gets up and tells me in an i-told-you-so sort of way how she doesn't think I'm evil and how she just exposed me for how *insert word that means evil but not quite being evil* I am instead.
haha.
Comment by postmoderncritic
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Padsoc
Ahmed, the first thing I will do when I get back on Orble is to write a post about the perils of desensitisation towards violence, thanks to your icon. You are, for better or worse, an inspiration.
You should win some award for keeping up a constant state of paranoia. It's quite admirable, really.
Comment by Ahmed
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I would put poo there but whether or not you read into it is irrelevent, people will be put off by it.
For what its worth, I'm glad to be serving as inspiration for you to go on your noble crusade making the world a better place and what have you!
^_^
Comment by postmoderncritic
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Comment by Morgan Bell
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theyre all such cute words, its hard to even think of them as insults
hi Epiphanie,
i hope your holiday is going well!
i thought i would post something while you were away . . . Ahmed was being really well behaved until he saw you! haha
i look forward to your new posts when you get back!
hi Ahmed,
i so glad we managed to get your opinions on discrimination out of you before your sparring partner distracted you . . . i might just leave you two to it
play nice guys!
ultimately this blog is PoMos creation so we should try to respect the moderator . . .
Comment by Ahmed
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If I had poo you'd be saying the opposite, there's no pleasing women.
i so glad we managed to get your opinions on discrimination out of you before your sparring partner distracted you . . . i might just leave you two to it
I'm sorry morgan, when I see PMC round here parts all i can think of is how I can engage her in a sort of 'discussion'. It reaffirms to me that there are looney left wingers on par in the looney department with their right wing counterparts.
Comment by Cheryl J
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However, a pharmacist should not have such freedoms. If their job is to dispense medications on a prescription provided by a medical practitioner it is their job to do that.
If your job requires you to provide a service that you find morally reprehensible but it is a requirement, then you have a legal and ethical responsibility to do just that. The same goes for taxi drivers. If you don't like it, get out.
If a company requires anti-discrimination then it has the expectation that the staff follow their code.
That said, I don't agree that flyers promoting anything other than anything relating to the workplace belong in the workplace. This goes for religious flyers and gay rights flyers. Both are unnecessary unless you work in a) a church or b) a company that is involved in promoting gay rights activities. Any time you are pushing your own agenda onto another person you are violating their rights.
No religious holidays be accepted into the workplace unless all are.
It's gotten to the point where PC and fear is so rife at work that I asked friends at work today if they thought I looked better as a blonde or brunette as I'm thinking of doing something with my hair. One of the responses was "I think you look great with brown hair" quickly followed by, "I hope that isn't offensive and I hope you don't take that as a sexual reference". When did it become so bad that people have to qualify a simple statement in case it's taken the wrong way?
the whole thing is ridiculous.
PS: Ahmed I LOVE that avatar. It's funny!
Comment by Ahmed
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btw as for hair colour, it depends, boys like blondes, men like brunettes ^_^
If anyone says otherwise don't believe them, they're not men.
Comment by Ahmed
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btw as for hair colour, it depends, boys like blondes, men like brunettes ^_^
If anyone says otherwise don't believe them, they're not men.
Comment by Cheryl J
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As for my sense of humour, I have it in abundance especially if something is sarcastic, witty and mildy offensive as all the best stuff is...I think I just described myself - I'm the ultimate narcissist!
Comment by Morgan Bell
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thanks for your thoughtful response!
im pretty left wing when it comes to health care, i think affordable and timely health care is a basic human right and doctors and pharmacists who refuse treatments to others (esp in rural areas where services are limited) are negligent . . . i hope that is where we are headed as a society even though there are laws in the USA that do not reflect this
i worked in a local government office for a really long time where every action you took had to comply with EEO and OH&S and anti-discrimination etc and we still had posters which advertised events and celebrations whether they were for environmental causes or sporting activities or health issue fundraisers or support groups or foreign culture clubs . . . if it is for benevolent purposes i dont see the problem . . . however, malevolent propanganda designed to insult i think has no place at work
posters that claim you should join a group to "preserve our workplace with integrity'' are designed to rally against a particular group and marginalise them . . . similarly quoting passages from any text that deems a group of people evil or unnatural (and im not just talking about the bible, i mean current newspaper articles, political manifestos, even film screenplays) is not appropriate for the workplace
if there was a poster for a queer celebration stating "learn how to be gay, the only natural lifestyle, if you dont come you are evil" i would insist that be taken down immediately!
Comment by postmoderncritic
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First of all, it might interest you to know that of all the people I know, RL and virtual, you're the only one who thinks me self-righteous.
Secondly, you have NO evidence to base your assumption that I would change my mind on. Not only that, you're completely off the mark because I know my priorities and am confident in writing about them.
Thirdly, how is my behaviour supposed to be representative of all women? Making generalisations about groups is harmful, simplistic and unhelpful.
But hey, if women are so tough to please, why not try men instead?
Comment by Kleonaptra
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Ah, Ruby, I think you and I could have the greatest bitch session about religion....How they force it up your nose and through the pores of your skin and then say the only way to redeem this horror we have done to you is to go do it to someone else.
Im sure God approves.
Why do you think Im dancing with the Devil?
Morgan, you write so well and on these sensitive topics you always manage to walk to razor edge without ever tipping to one side or the other. Thats admirable and its something I cant do. I dont know why someone gets into health care at all if they dont want to help people - Ive had plenty disagree with me, but my life is my life, its their job to help me and they chose that path, not me. Their personal feelings are not supposed to come into it at all. I know pharmacists dont take the hippocratic, but maybe they should. (Ive spelt it wrong, its very late and Im very drunk, but Im referring to THE oath)
Comment by Morgan Bell
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thanks for stopping in, i always value your opinion! and i appreciate the compliment . . . i try to put my "moderator" cap on when talking about politics as people are very passionate about their opinions!
"the oath" is apparently not compulsary but most doctors still consider it a right of passage . . . it has been updated many times at many different medical schools since antiquity but here is a fairly modern version:
I do solemnly vow, to that which I value and hold most dear:
That I will honor the Profession of Medicine, be just and generous to its members, and help sustain them in their service to humanity;
That just as I have learned from those who preceded me, so will I instruct those who follow me in the science and the art of medicine;
That I will recognize the limits of my knowledge and pursue lifelong learning to better care for the sick and to prevent illness;
That I will seek the counsel of others when they are more expert so as to fulfill my obligation to those who are entrusted to my care;
That I will not withdraw from my patients in their time of need;
That I will lead my life and practice my art with integrity and honor, using my power wisely;
That whatsoever I shall see or hear of the lives of my patients that is not fitting to be spoken, I will keep in confidence;
That into whatever house I shall enter, it shall be for the good of the sick;
That I will maintain this sacred trust, holding myself far aloof from wrong, from corrupting, from the tempting of others to vice;
That above all else I will serve the highest interests of my patients through the practice of my science and my art;
That I will be an advocate for patients in need and strive for justice in the care of the sick.
I now turn to my calling, promising to preserve its finest traditions, with the reward of a long experience in the joy of healing.
I make this vow freely and upon my honor.
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you know what? You are absoloutely right, someone who is devoid of the capability to understand humour must always be right, what with such a cold out look on life.
We should all sit down being very wary in case we might offend someone, you know, be all PC and whatnot, extra wary, because life is all about walking on egg shells.
You know I'm convinced you're only treating me like this because you 'know' what kind of a horrid person I am, but if you really treat *people* like this, men in particular, you're going to die a very lonely person.
...oh wait, did I just discriminate against your pansexuality?
god, I'm such a bad person, always discriminating *sigh* The world would be better without people like me eh?
Comment by Morgan Bell
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harmony, its a beautiful concept . . . but should we tolerate intolerance too? or is humouring people encouraging them?
i think people have the right to go to work without being put-down or bullied but with that right comes the responsibility to extend the courtesy to everyone else
Comment by Ahmed
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If men could screw women in a cardboard box they'd never buy a house.
...said one terrible comedian who shall remain nameless beause he's evil and discrimnating aginst poor old oppressed women who are pansexuals and whatnot.
Watch out PMC! The world is out to get you!
Comment by Brenton
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I think a great deal of whjat we call 'PC' is really individuals with intence views.
Calling it PC goe mad or what not is not helpful, because it essentially creates an enemy that doesn't exist so that we can launch our anger against it.
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yeah i think the idea of PC is just to get people to think about the terms they use to describe people, avoiding loaded words etc . . . the art of the euphamism! haha
some people hijack the concept of being PC and try to use it in an accusational way to make people uncomfortable, which kind of flys in the face of the original intention . . . the idea is to speak inclusively not to use it as some kind of self-righteous weapon
for example if someone gets called a "half-cast" and it makes them uncomfotable they should just calmly inform the person "actually i prefer mixed race" or whatever, not to scream in their face that theyre a racist or a bigot etc
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What's sad is i forget how that particular rhyme ends.
Comment by Morgan Bell
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first comes the love, then comes the marriage, then comes the orblettes sitting in the carriage
Ruby made me say it!
the views expressed by Morgan Bell are not necessarily the views of PADSOC haha
Comment by Ahmed
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ah *sigh* I'm slow tonight.
Comment by postmoderncritic
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Actually, 'Ahmed' and I are married in real life and this is what we do to spice things up...
Man, I don't even know what to say to Ahmed right now... boy's got too many issues to start on when your internet connection comes at one pound every five minutes...
Morgan,
Thanks, lovely, I'm loving my holiday and I look forward to getting back to Orble a-proper. I've missed your posts too! Muah~
By the way, I may have started PADSOC but it's meant to be a joint Orble blog, so I don't need to approve every post 100% or anything...
Comment by Ahmed
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Man, I don't even know what to say to Ahmed right now... boy's got too many issues to start on when your internet connection comes at one pound every five minutes...
You should look into getting therapy, it's cheaper and the therapist won't tease you.... as much
Comment by Morgan Bell
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hey i see Jeff is a member of PADSOC, excellent!
i hope more writers apply so we can get a range of different opinions about what causes discrimination and where it occurs etc
Comment by Ahmed
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...
I hope you're joking.
/you should know I'm no good with subtelties
oh I'd join but I fear to be discriminated against ^_^
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would that be PoMos right to deny membership if she thought you unsuited to the position?
is it your individual responsibility not to apply at all if you have ethical objections to the duties you would have to perform?
if you applied and were accepted but then used to position to put forth your anti-PoMo views would it be reasonable for you to be removed?
and if so should you receive financial compensation?
A REAL LIFE EXAMPLE!!!!
WHAT DOES EVERYONE THINK?
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Comment by Ahmed
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twas a joke.
If I did join I'd only do it to rub a certain someone the wrong way ^_^
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I was referring to this:
...
I hope you're joking.
You guys are hot for each other. It's so obvious.
I'm so going to get banned for this aren't I?
Comment by Ahmed
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haha, if you knew me you'd find that comment hilarious, even more so than you think..
nah, all youv'e done is given PMC another avenue in which to express how 'open minded' she is ^_^
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Well that's intriguing. Please continue. Are you gay? A eunuch? A woman? What?
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lol, no, it's more... dramatic than that -_-
btw PMC probably thinks I'm gay or something which is also interesting to note.
Comment by S.L. Bradish
Suppose you worked in a sporting goods store and a man came in to buy a knife. He picks a knife with a long, sharp blade, smiles and says he plans to cut someones throat with it. For some reason you believe him. Now, do you sell him the knife (because it's your job)? Or do you descriminate against him and refuse (probably saving a life)? That's how pro-lifers feel about the morning after pill.
Comment by Cheryl J
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I know to pro-lifers abortion may feel like a criminal offence but the fact remains, it is not. The same goes for Catholic pharmacists; it is not their job to say that a person can't have access to birth-control pills or condoms because it goes against their faith. Although I certainly sympathise with pro-life pharmacists who find themselves in this position, you cannot pick and choose who you provide medication to, and what a doctor prescribes.
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I don't. Do your job or find another one.
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I am pro-choice, not pro-abortion as I have been accused of previously, but I respect a person's right to believe abortion is wrong. However I don't respect a person's belief when it is pushed onto someone else. The fact is it is the responsibility of a pharmacist to dispense ALL medications that are prescribed so while I may sympathise with people in this position I do NOT agree that conscience clauses should be allowed. If the law in their state or country says that it is legal than they have no right to deny medication.
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Perhaps I would not be so angry if the woman who was denied the pill by not one but three pharmacists was not a rape victim. To be raped and then have three people treat you as if you are the criminal, people whose job it is to help you...
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I am also also often amazed when a pro-lifer is 100 per cent against abortion as it is the taking of a human life but then can support the death penalty. I don't support the death penalty but support a woman's right to choose. Yet I also feel that abortion should not be allowed as a form of birth control. I guess we are all hypocrites in our own ways.
I just don't like other's opinions forced on me. The law is what dictates these things and so it is the law we follow especially when we are in positions of trust and power such as doctors and pharmacists. They are not there to judge, they are their to perform the functions of their job governed by law.
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thanks for the pro-life viewpoint
i actually thought people who sold knives and firearms and other weapons werent allowed to discriminate or refuse service and generally sell products to whoever requests them (within the bounds of their local laws)
the morning after pill is taken within 72 hours of intercourse and is the equivalent of taking approx 6 of "the pill", i think the law is pretty clear about this not being a crime
"the pill" itself can be prescribed for endometriosis, period pain, period regularity, and other period and hormonal problems, i think it is highly presumptuous of a pharmacist to make ethical judgements about a treatment when they dont know the patient history that led to the doctors decision
im also concerned that when personal values become a factor in people having access to medical treatments that people can be refused HIV treatments, abortion after-care (antibiotics etc), sex change hormones, methadone for heroin withdrawal etc
Really Long Link
Really Long Link
Comment by Morgan Bell
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i agree, i dont think pharmacists should be playing doctor, they should stock and dispense all legal medications that are prescribed
i found an interesting article likening the morning after pill to breast feeding as both prevent eggs from implanting in the uterus
Really Long Link
and should a Conscience Clause extend to "futile treatments" where drugs are prescribed to extend the life of a terminal patient and the pharmacist morally disagrees with the patient or doctors choice?
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pro-forced-pregnancy? haha thats a new one
ive always thought it was basically anti-choice
Comment by Brenton
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Some legal points.
It is to the discretion of the person serving others as to whether they will proceed with the sale. For example, if while I was at IGA I reasonably believed a person was buying metho to sniff, I could not sell it.
IN the case of the morning after pil what we are not talking about is murder, as we a talking of three things;
1. Causing the death - In scientific terms yes.
2. Of a person. Something that will be a person eventually is not regarded a person, hence why we legally dispose of condoms etc.
3. Without legal cause. Again, the pill is legal.
So the analogy in direct terms is inaccurate. I can understand that in terms of simple emotions it may make sense. However, emotional opposition to a thing does not always equate to a moral superiority.
Comment by Cheryl J
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Brenton I have to disagree with you on point one. The morning after pill is a bit of a misnomer. Emergency contraceptive pills (ECPs)—sometimes simply referred to as emergency contraceptives (ECs) or the "morning-after pill"—are drugs that act both to prevent ovulation or fertilisation and possibly post-fertilisation implantation of a blastocyst (embryo). ECPs are distinct from medical abortion methods that act after implantation. So even scientifically I would not characterise it as causing a death. There may not have even been any fertilisation occurring.
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thanks for clarifying with an example, i didnt realise retailers were retricting sale of dangerous goods . . . very interesting . . . is the decision about whether to sell metho based solely on the customers appearance?
hi Cheryl,
thanks for pointing out that lesser known fact, i think the morning after pill is still preventative even if it was taken after the act . . . Plan B (the morning after pill) is different from RU486 (a medical abortion) . . . but a Conscience Clause could allow for the refusal of the morning after pill or any contraceptives or treatments, the discretion is entirely with the pharmacist who can make the decision based on any factor
does simply handling a product which is going to be dispensed anyway personally affect the ethics of a pharmacist? or is it just an excuse to delay the treatment of people you dont like?
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Comment by Cheryl J
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Morgan, this has been a fantastic post. It has raised more than one issue and sparked informed and intelligent debate and I think it has everyone thinking about the issue no matter where they personally stand on it. As Kleo stated above you have a great skill of putting forth issues that force people to think while remaining a calm voice of reason.
Personally, I'd have to rate this as one of the best posts on Orble as people have come up with interesting and differing views yet it hasn't disintegrated into screaming matches.
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*sigh*
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thankyou!
i must say everybody has been surprisingly well behaved . . . i think its more constructive when we all stick to the issues rather than flying off the handle . . . well except for Ahmed and PoMo breaking into a momentary slag-a-tho haha
oh speaking of Ahmed there he is sighing . . . whats up? not enough drama? lol
Comment by Ahmed
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it'sno good that everyone is basically agreeing.
I'm too far left.
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Comment by Ahmed
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I'll be right behind you XD
Comment by Morgan Bell
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just because people arent insulting each other doesnt mean they all agree . . .
suggestions have ranged from banning religion in the workplace, to banning all non-work-related posters, to making a distinction between private and public workplaces, or owners rights vs employees, the suggestion that people should choose careers based on their beliefs, and the pro-life argument of why ethics should have a place at work
i encourage anyone who wants to put forth another perspecive to speak up and share . . .
basically the questions are:
does the law adequately represent the ethics of society?
should Access To Birth Control take priority over Conscience Clauses?
are religious beliefs an excuse for not complying with the code of conduct in a workplace?
should there be any penalty for impacting on the rights of someone else in a work environment?
Comment by Ahmed
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I've read the conversation, everyone pretty much agrees.
Insulting or not.
Comment by Ahmed
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The thing I take issue with is that if there has been any 'disagreements' it has been in the semantics of the braod answer that is 'yes'. Not that there's something wrong with that, it could be 'is pedophilia wrong?' and everyone would be yes and the discussion would be over the details of just how wrong it is.
But unlike the case of pedophiles there is a sizable *otherside* here, the opinion of which we did not get except in one small dose, granted it was so far to the right it was toxic in nature but that's besides the point.
Comment by Ahmed
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The thing I take issue with is that if there has been any 'disagreements' it has been in the semantics of the braod answer that is 'yes'. Not that there's something wrong with that, it could be 'is pedophilia wrong?' and everyone would be yes and the discussion would be over the details of just how wrong it is.
But unlike the case of pedophiles there is a sizable *otherside* here, the opinion of which we did not get except in one small dose, granted it was so far to the right it was toxic in nature but that's besides the point.
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Morgan is Orble's new 'voice of reason'? Hmm. I know someone who will be non too pleased to hear that he has been stripped of his title. Morgan, you should expect a revenge post any minute now.
What's that? It's already up? Cor blimey, he doesn't waste any time does he?
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i see your point when you relate christians to pedophiles like that . . .
and statistically you would expect more than half of respondants to this article that are from Australia and the USA to be christian themselves, and the majority of people to be of some faith . . .
i guess that could indicate one of two things
1) the majority of christians actually do believe in tolerance despite a few extreme examples
OR
2) people who are intolerant towards gays and women dont feel comfortable expressing their opinions on PADSOC
im certainly not going to shout anyone down and i personally can see the dilemma people from evangelical religions face when they are taught some behaviour is "evil" and should not be tolerated . . . theres two opposing ideas at work and one of them will inevitably have to compromise . . . but will it be the role of the christian that will change or the role of the law?
it looks like it could go either way in the USA?
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In many ways American society is actually more progressive than Australia. e.g, How many states here allow same sex marriage? And RU486 is available in the States and even though it has been legalised here, as far as I know no drug company has applied to import it. And technically speaking abortion has yet to be decriminalised in Victoria.
yeah, America has its fair share of fundies, but they are just a tool that is been manipulated in exchange for power.And they fall for it. That's the way it goes.
"Religion is regarded by the common people as true...and by rulers as useful".
Comment by Morgan Bell
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the voice of reason!
Ahmed may have a point, you can only be the voice of reason for a certain demographic . . . if you are letting everyone have their say and not resorting to dismissing all tricky questions as semantics im sure there are some folks who would find that highly unreasonable . . .
at times like this i am reminded of John Farnham's emotionally uplifting song "The Age of Reason" (and sometimes his other power ballad "The Voice"
How can we fail to see
And now that our fathers have gone
And weve been left to carry on
What about the age of reason
thanks for that John
Comment by Ahmed
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eh? I do no such thing. I specifically say they are not like pedophiles and... oh whatever...
I think you're hopping off a platform of an opinion you've created for yourself, the issue here is you're speaking the Christians viewpointa nd explaining why it's wrong, I'd much rather a Christian explain the Christian viewpoint and a discussion can be created around that. Until then this discussion is running in the hypothetical 'if Christians think this then they are wrong because of that'.
Comment by Ahmed
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I'm just saying, there has not been an adequate explanaation of different view points, there has been only one view point expressed and any discussion has almost exclusively been built around this one viewpoint.
Make no mistake, I'm not belittling the semantics, just wondering why we're acting like we've accomplished something here when all that has really occured is a collective 'yes' with no real contest, direct or otherwise, real or implied.
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I'm disappointed you don't think we have accomplished anything here. We were hoping to tackle world peace next....
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i meant contrasting christians with pedophiles made your point clearer, it was a good example, you related the two issues to each other to show the difference
i have no idea if any of the people who have responded to this post are christian, well i know S.L is, Ruby used to be, Kleo went to catholic school i think . . . i couldnt be sure where anyone is coming from unless they specifically state it . . . the examples of Employment Non-Discrimination Act (ENDA) and other Sexual Orientation Nondiscrimination Laws came direct from a christian group, the christians that are involved with that particular website (and many other similar sites) states that they are being discriminated against
i do agree with you that the overall answer to the question posed in the title has so far been "no" and the debating points have been about the details
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The real horror of this situations is that, in some places, there might only be one or two pharmacies. If they both adopt these views, then there's no contraception in the town?
Also, I've read an article that mentions that the efficacy of the morning-after pill is related to how soon you take it. For rape victims, who have already been through an ordeal, it's inhuman to badger them at the pharmacy or refuse them the medication, forcing them to try and find another pharmacy.
Jeff, I fear for the same scenario... siege mentality...
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There are two types of discriminatoion; Direct and indirect. InDirect discrimination is when a rule applied to all unfairly disadvantages some. This i the case in the pharmacist laws. It is a rule that disadvantages Christian pharmacists from both doing their job and having personl morals. The Girl did not have her rights vioated by the pharmacist- she wanted him to do something which he felt he could not have done. If he had done it then HIS rights would have been violated. His rights to live a life that allows him to sleep giult free at night.
On a second note i find your comments contradictory. Your opposed to religion BECAUSE you respect diversity???? Religion is diversity, those were the pharmicists beliefs- he didnt impose them on the girl he didnt restrict her actions he restricted his own. le me use an analogy i believe that parents in Muslim countries that arrange marriage against the will of their children is wrong, however i would never try and stop it, but that doesnt mean i would sell them wedding rings.
Also you yourself do not respect diversity "fundies" i am a christian but i am not a fundamentalist. The word fundamentalist itself defines this- there can not be fundamentalists without a mainstream faith to be fundamentalist of.
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Luckily for women, the law disagrees with you. I'm glad those pharmacists got fired. Here's the deal Anon. No-one is forcing a Christian to have an abortion. No-one is telling them that is the right thing for them to do. But in the case of a woman who is raped seeking a morning after pill to prevent implantation of the embryo, being refused that medication by a pharmacist is a gross violation of her human rights. If you don't like the medicine you have to sell, quit your job.
I have no problems with religions that don't attempt to make other people live by their world views. Unfortunately those are very few and far between.
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No other indusrty or business is forced to sell anything- its part of the free market structure that makes capitalism tick.
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Eckerd's employment manual says pharmacists are not allowed to opt out of filling a prescription for religious, moral or ethical reasons.
They didn't perform the requirements of their job so they were fired as they should be. The employer ruled that they did not have an opt out clause which they would have been aware of as it was in the employee manual. They had no business being employed there if they weren't going to do what their job required. Simple.
Comment by RubySoho
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Comment by RubySoho
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Comment by Ahmed
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yeah but no one is legally recquired to make that accessible to them.
[quote]The pharmamcist withheld the pill from her. Hence, he infringed on her rights[/qote]
again, if he owned the pharamcy or had specifically opted out of the morning after pill selling thing then it would have been just as much his right not to sell it as it was her right to seek out to try and buy it.
...just saying.
Comment by Anonymous
Regardless, in making this decision the supremem court was prioritising rights-this in itself is unconstitutional. The pharmicist has a right to work regardless of his religion. to decide the womens right to do whatever she wants with her body is more important is ridiculous.
If a Muslim employee was told they couldnt stop for friday prayers so they couuldnt work a particular position this would be discriminatory- why is this differrent for Christians?
And a pharmicists Job is not to sell the morning after pill, a pharmicists job is to provide medication to save lives not end them. Yes he should have told his employer this and maybe he did. But if he told his employer this and the employer did not hire him on that bbasis- the employer could face both civil and criminal litigation for discriminating on basis of Religious expression, which is quite rightly illegal.
Comment by Brenton
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Best. Quote. Ever. EVER.
And yeah there really should be (i would imagine is) an oblgation for pharmacists to supply needed drugs.
Oh you have a headache? Well I don't approve of you taking a quick fix. God get some rest and water...
Comment by RubySoho
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1. Muslims asking for Friday prayers do not infringe on the rights of other people. Just asking for prayer time is not enforcing your beliefs on other people. Withholding medication is. Now if the Muslims in question try to introduce a rule forcing everyone to pray along with them, then I would protest.
2. A woman has rights! She has a right to abortion. The law says so. The pharmacist violated her rights. Can anyone please tell me what part of that is so difficult to comprehend?
3. "a pharmicists job is to provide medication to save lives not end them". Great rhetoric. Never heard that one before. Original. But incorrect. A pharmacists job is to sell drugs to customers that need them. He refused to do so. He was fired. End of story.
Comment by Anonymous
The problem with this is that medicating is the primary function of a pharmacist. Providing Drugs in order for people to kill unborn babies is not. Even if you dont believe it is killing, you can understand why some people do. Many pharmicists do not see providing these people with abortion drugs as they're duty but all accept that pain relief is.
Problem is most of the religious intolerance has come from other religions.
The very fact that this comment was made shows that YOU are intolerant of religion.
Comment by Ahmed
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It is, if I'm an employer and I hire someone who doesn't work for a couple of hours on friday it might cause me some problems, as such it would be my discretion if they are employed or not.
Your reasoning here is fundeamentally flawed, the pharamcist does not work for the government, the pharmacist has no obligation to give her 'rights'. For example Jon runs a blogging network called 'orble', jon has a right to keep anyone he doesn't like from making blogs on his network, however he is not infringing on anyones right to 'freedom of expression'. He is providing a service, not a system by which he gives rights to people, it would be a violation of his rights to force him to accept anyone who wants to make a blog using his service.
Comment by Johnny Come Lately
Jack's Back
This is a forum to argue political ideas but for the moment it is law and we all have to abide by the laws that govern us. The pharmacists may not agree with it and I respect their right to lobby to have the law changed but until then if it is prescribed then it should be provided.
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Comment by Ahmed
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If he owned the store he could choose not to sell the morning after pill and no one could say otherwise, 'reproductive rights'? is all well and good but that doesn't mean people are obliged to give you those rights.
...unless there's a law stating otherwise.
Comment by Anonymous
Well in that case your logic follows ruby- Her right is infringing on his. He is forced by her to help her do something which he feels is murder. EVEN IF SHE DISGREES he wont sleep any better at night. This is his right being infringred upon.
And did u even read the post. There is a question being asked- Yes she has a legal right, but should that legal right be more important than his legal right to religious freedom
And why is my belief less credible because of its christian origins?? maybe something to consider before thinking yourself important enough to state that theology is "incorrect". You can disagree but not state it factually incrrect unless YOU are the God that YOU say doesnt exist
Comment by Anonymous
And are you suggesting the baby of a rapist is somehow a less valuable life than another baby? COZ THAT IS SICK
Comment by RubySoho
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The Roe Court deemed abortion a fundamental right under the United States Constitution, thereby subjecting all laws attempting to restrict it to the standard of strict scrutiny.
Restricting a woman's right to abortion is actually against the law.
It's not just legal or permissable. it's a right.
Comment by Anonymous
factually incorrect. No job descriptions are in the constitution. And regardless, this is a political discussion forum. The law is not the bounds of it because by very nature of any political discussion ither a law or proposed law must be controversial or otherwise nooone would talk about it
Comment by Anonymous
A women has the right to an abortion but noone should have the duty to give it to her, that is what is being discussed.
Comment by Ahmed
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It's not just legal or permissable. it's a right.
Still, irrespective of whether or not it's a right it is no ones obligation to fullfill that right, unless there's a law that specifically states you, as a person of such and such stature are obligated to do so.
Her rights? Sure, she has a right to perform an abortion, no one is taking that away so I dont see why you're complaining here.
Comment by Ahmed
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No one is obliged to give me the ability to excercise my religious freedom, 'a right', the key thing about having rights is that no one can take them away.
Comment by Summer
Comment by RubySoho
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No it is not. there is no law that says a person has the right to
force their beliefs on others. By witholding the drug that's exactly what he was doing.
Yes she has a legal right, but should that legal right be more important than his legal right to religious freedom
Once again refusing a customer a contraceptive pill is not infringing on religious freedom. But yes, i would say that the woman's right to the drug trumps a Christians right to force everyone to do what he says. I'm funny like that. i happen to think what happens in a woman's uterus is no-one's business but hers. he is free to practice his religion and believe what he likes. But when his beliefs violate the fundamental human rights of another person...then the law is not on his side.
And why is my belief less credible because of its christian origins?
I don't believe that your belief is less credible. But neither is it more so.
By ommision of action they may have lefft her in that predicament but they didnt force anything.
Nice argument. In that case if abortion is criminalised tomorrow, well the law is not taking women's rights away, it's just not helping them. Not forcing then to carry unwanted pregnancies to term. If a Muslim is denied prayer time, well we are not taken anything away, we are just not giving them that time.
And are you suggesting the baby of a rapist is somehow a less valuable life than another baby? COZ THAT IS SICK
No. i don't think any person is less valuable than any other. If a woman is raped and decides to continue with the pregnancy, the I wish her and her child luck. But likewise I support her right to refuse carrying that fetus. And if the thought of carrying that fetus for nine months and then giving birth to it fills her with revulsion, then quite rightly I sympathise with her. A rapist's child growing inside my belly? Pass me the coathanger before I let that happen.
Comment by RubySoho
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factually incorrect.
My apologies. But it is in the pharmacists manual. So regardless, the pharmacist was in the wrong.
Comment by Anonymous
It does. By forcing the pharmicist to provide drugs against his religion you are effectively making him choose between his proffesion and his faith. This is unfair.
But yes, i would say that the woman's right to the drug trumps a Christians right to force everyone to do what he says.
Um wat did i miss? the christian isnt forcing anyone to do anything. She is forcing him to do something. He didnt tie her up and hold her hostage for nine mnths he just said that he didnt want to be a part of what he felt was murder. He has not forced her to do anything. If you refused to sell me a bottle of coke you wouldnt be forcing me to go without coke, you would just not be giving it to me.
In that case if abortion is criminalised tomorrow, well the law is not taking women's rights away, it's just not helping them.
And no, creating a law is an action not an ommision obviously. Once again the pharmicist didnt DO anything.
it is a sad fact that a women has a right to an abortion but thank god noone else has the obligation to help her. Because i would rather kill myself than help a women kill an innocent child- that is how i and the pharmicist feel, that is OUR RIGHT to religious freedom
Comment by RubySoho
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What's that? You haven't read that part of the Bible? Why am I not surprised.
Comment by Anonymous
Talking down opponents and mocking their religion to make your shallow point is not respecting diversity in any way at all. It shows your disregard for the beliefs of those you co-habitat with. I hope you reflect on that because it definietly went way too far to mock my religion. I never tried to make you agree with that i was saying i was mearely puting up the christian perspective. You have forgotten the reason the forum exists when religious intimidation starts to be used
Comment by Morgan Bell
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Plan B (the morning after pill) is an emergency contraceptive that prevents ovulation and/or implantation, just like daily oral contraceptives.
It is the consensus of the following authorities that Plan B is contraception not abortion
- World Health Organization
- Food and Drug Administration
- American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists
- Association of Reproductive Health Physicians
- American Public Health Association
- American Medical Association
Pharmacy is a profession and pharmacists have a professional duty to provide access to therapies which are approved by the US Food and Drug Administration when accompanied by a valid prescription.
Pharmacists are considered to be "health professionals" who must complete degrees and be licensed - licensed health professionals agree to putting the needs of patients ahead of their own.
American Society of Health-Systems Pharmacists
Really Long Link
American Pharmacists Association
Really Long Link
Comment by RubySoho
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Wrong on both counts. Firstly many Christians do question that abortion is considered wrong by the teachings of the Bible. Coptic Orthodox for example do allow women to make their own choices. Also the ancient Jews, you know those people that actually wrote the Bible, did not consider fetuses to be viable human beings. In fact, they did not consider babies to be viable until they were one month old. Anyone under that age was not included in the census. Parents of infants who died before they reached the age of 30 days were not permitted to grieve for their dead offspring. So yeah, that's a bit of perspective for you.
Anon you have just exhibited that double standard that religion does so well. Namely that you think you are free to say whatever you wish about my beliefs to make your point but demand that your beliefs, because they happen to be religious ones, are somehow untouchable. Sorry, i don't subscribe to that point of view. You have just accused women who have abortions of murder and said you would rather committ suicide ( a mortal sin in itself) rather than help a desperate woman in time of need. Yet somehow you see fit to tell me that it is wrong of me to tell you to actually pick up your Bible and read it.
That passage is in ALL modern forms of the Bible. But in some cases it has been translated as "her stomach to swell and her thighs to rot away" In ancient Hebrew that is how a miscarriage was described. Clearly, the woman was intended to miscarry her child. But you know, I didn't make this up. Other people have studied the Bible and come to this conclusion. Ever wondered why abortion is not considered a sin in Judaism?
Secondly, the study of the Bible is open to all and sundry. Just because I am no longer a Christian does not mean I am not permitted to read and comment on it. Your religious beliefs affect me far more than my beliefs will ever affect you. I do have a right to tell you what I think of them and it is a right that I intend to exercise.
Comment by Morgan Bell
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you raise an important point, women who have been raped or worried about an unplanned pregnancy really dont need to be going through an extra stress . . . as professionals pharmacists agree to care for patients not to deter them from seeking treatments or hinder their access to treatments
hi Anonymous,
(ill presume all the anon comments are the same person, correct me if im wrong)
thankyou for providing another christian/pro-life perspective . . . i would love to know more about your opinions:
do you believe a christian/pro-life pharmacist should not handle any type of contraceptives at all?
do you think being pro-life is related to being part of the christian religion?
if a non-religious or atheist person was politically pro-life pharmacist should they be given ethical concessions at work outside of the umbrella of religious tolerance?
do you define "helping" someone take contraceptives as putting the box in their hand, or would stacking the shelves in a pharmacy that stocked contraceptives also be helping?
would a christian/pro-life pharmacist be able to refer the customer to a colleague in good conscience?
Comment by Morgan Bell
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is it called a culture war? haha
it seems like even the laws are quite contrasting, the existance of a Conscience Clause is almost like saying "this is the law, unless you dont agree with the law, in which case do whatever you feel is right"
im currently living in a rural area of australia with practically no public transport, being refused service on a medical treatment that depended on immediacy would be akin to forcing someone
hi Johnny,
excellent point!
if you agree to a code of conduct in a workplace you should be held to it, if a workplace is asking something unreasonable (in your mind) in the employment manual you can refuse to accept the job offer or resign if you find it to be a major compenent of your duties . . . it does make me wonder though, where will all the pro-life pharmacists work?
hi Brenton,
i like that analogy! and it raises a valid concern about the slippery slope of Conscience Clauses, theoretically a pharmacist could have a moral objection to just about anything or anyone!
perhaps potential pharmacists should consider the accepted Code of Ethics of the Pharmacists Association and consider whether it is in line with their own ethics before studying the discipline or applying for a licence?
Comment by Morgan Bell
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you were right, the conversation has a completely different dynamic with an active christian stakeholder as a presence . . . anon has certainly deepened the discussion with an opposing point of view
i think legally the government is obligated to make health care accessible and affordable in accordance with human rights . . . in a rich country like the USA if the government is going to allow individual businesses or employees to opt out of providing care then perhaps they should be providing public alternatives?
the responsibility is definately there it is just a matter of having a system efficient enough to ensure there are no breaks in the chain of custody between saying someone has health rights and implementing the delivery of the rights in a practical way
Comment by Morgan Bell
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i havent forgotten you i just thought i would leave the best til last!
i 100% agree with you that women are entitled to reproductive rights as human rights
the question is can reproductive rights and religious freedoms co-exist? and whos responsibility is it to make that happen?
lets see what the U.S. Equal Employment Opportunity Commission has to say . . .
An employer is not required to accommodate an employee's religious beliefs and practices if doing so would impose an undue hardship on the employers' legitimate business interests. An employer can show undue hardship if accommodating an employee's religious practices requires more than ordinary administrative costs, diminishes efficiency in other jobs, infringes on other employees' job rights or benefits, impairs workplace safety, causes co-workers to carry the accommodated employee's share of potentially hazardous or burdensome work, or if the proposed accommodation conflicts with another law or regulation.
Wal-Mart has tried to apply the "undue hardship" rule in two different cases with two different results
to read about the cases of Vandersand and Noesen CLICKHERE
Comment by RubySoho
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Can someone please explain to me how a rape victim seeking a morning after pill is possibly infringing on another person's religious freedoms? Honouring medical scripts is part of a pharmacists job. If the essence of the job conflicts with your beliefs, then you have no business being in that job. You cannot expect the entire world to bend your own beliefs.
What happens if we allow this behaviour? And more and more people start acting in a like manner? What happens to women's rights then? How many pharmacies will a woman have to go to before someone is actually willing to do their job?
He had a job to do. He failed to do it. He lost his job. And rightly so.
If you have a problem with killing animals best not to work in an aboittoir.
How's that for an analogy?
Comment by Morgan Bell
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i like that analogy too!
surely the contraceptive pill has been available in pharmacies in western countries since the 1960s? i would imagine learning about contraceptives is part of the Pharmacy Degree too so when entering into the field pro-lifers must have some idea they will be responsible for dispensing it if choosing to work in that field?
in the case of Noesen i really wondered if he was being purposely difficult in order to sue for damages?
Noesen explained that he could not deal with customers at the counter or on the telephone unless they were pre-screened to ensure that they were not seeking birth control. The manager then offered to relieve him of counter duty, but could not relieve him from telephone duty as the high volume of calls mandated that all employees answer the telephone. Noesen refused to work under these conditions and the manager terminated his employment. Suit was filed alleging that the manager violated Title VII's religious accommodation requirement.
Comment by RubySoho
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Illinois passed an administrative rule requiring pharmacies to provide the morning after contraceptive pill.
So Ahmed (and Anonymous if you're not still sulking), it would appear that the law in some States does require that emergency contraception is made available for women.
Possibly Noeson had his sights set on suing all along. or its possible that he really thought he was in the right. Either way, his behaviour was outrageous.
Supermarket cashiers refusing to deal with customers who are buying pork? I mean really? Who do they think they are? Is anyone forcing them to eat it?
I'm a strict vegetarian. It is my personal belief that eating meat is wrong and unnatural. I can't stand looking at it and the smell makes me feel ill. I did years of waitressing when I was studying and I can just imagine what my employers would have said if i had refused to serve steaks or spag bol to the customers....but of course i didn't do any such thing. i realised it was part and parcel of the job and i sucked it up. but since my beliefs are not religious, i guess they don't matter as much hey?
Comment by postmoderncritic
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Not long now till I'm back in Oz and I can blog to my heart's content...
Comment by Morgan Bell
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well its kind of like the example Brenton gave before, would an atheist who works at a bookstore refuse to handle bibles?
do nurses refuse to tend to the rooms of patients with "do not resuscitate" orders, or postal workers reuse to deliver percels which may contain pornographic dvds?
individual morals are as endless as they are diverse, i think its important to have a sense of proportion about what directly impacts on you and what doesnt
hi epiphanie,
yeah i cant wait until your back, PADSOC is addictive, its taking over my life! haha
we need your guidance!
i hope you are having a nice time though, it must be nearly time for me to take my bi-mothly overseas holiday (and by overseas i just mean to the mainland lol)
Comment by Brenton
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The problem with this is that medicating is the primary function of a pharmacist. Providing Drugs in order for people to kill unborn babies is not. Even if you dont believe it is killing, you can understand why some people do. Many pharmicists do not see providing these people with abortion drugs as they're duty but all accept that pain relief is.
Medicating to me, means providing medication. I'm sure if you wanted to look at the legal obligations of pharmacists you could probably see this written in somewhere.
Morgan, please don't blame me for a 'slippery-slope'
Comment by Jeff Musall
Secular Humanity
But that's beside the point if you ask me. Here's the bottom line. No religious belief should be allowed to affect any aspect of any job or any other area of public life in a civilized society. Why? Only the followers of a particular religion have any reason at all to follow their doctrine. To everyone else the doctrine seems wrong, or misguided, or evil, or whatever. What if a religion starts up around the worship of Mickey Mouse? Should store employees be allowed to not sell mouse traps? What each believer needs to understand is that as silly as that sounds, it is just as viable at the basic level. What makes a religious view any more "true?" That more people believe it? As much evidence could be built around the divinity of the talking mouse as exists for that of any religious figure.
Religion in a free and civilized society has no place in government, education, or the workplace.
Comment by Anne Tootill
If we live in a free and civilized society, why can't I have chose to have religious beliefs?
Comment by Summer
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Comment by RubySoho
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Comment by Anonymous
Medication noun
1. (medicine) something that treats or prevents or alleviates the symptoms of disease
Is the baby a disease brenton?
Comment by RubySoho
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the art or science of restoring or preserving health or due physical condition, as by means of drugs, surgical operations or appliances, or manipulations: often divided into medicine proper, surgery, and obstetrics.
I would say that the morning after pill and abortion "restores due physical condition". Wouldn't you?
Comment by Anonymous
med·i·ca·tion (md-kshn)
n.
1. A medicine; a medicament.
2. The act or process of treating with medicine.
3. Administration of medicine.
medication
Noun
1. treatment with drugs or remedies
2. a drug or remedy
Main Entry: med·i·ca·tion
Pronunciation: \ˌme-də-ˈk 7;-shən\
Function: noun
Date: 15th century
1 : the act or process of medicating
2 : a medicinal substance : medicament
med·i·ca·tion / ˌmedəˈkās hən/
• n. a substance used for medical treatment
Nothing there that precludes birth control.
JC
Comment by RubySoho
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Sorry i wasn't aware that you and you alone are endowed with the power to decide what constitutes medicine. Wow, does the AMA know this? Have you informed them?
And now you are saying that we are to look to the 15th century for our understanding of what modern medicine means? Oh well you do look to the ancient world for your understanding of what modern humanity means so I should probably congratulate you on your progress.
There is no rhyme nor reason to your arguments. Being anti-abortion is one thing but to to pontificate from your male pedestal about birth control, to deny women even the option of preventing pregnancy, shows such an utter disregard for the free will and determination of your fellow human beings as to render your opinions obsolete.
Your religious beliefs are an affront to women everywhere and the cause of untold misery and suffering. And you wonder why I mock them?
Comment by Doug Pollard
Rainbow Reporter
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And then slides out of responsibility for that opinion, by claiming it isn't theirs, it's gods?
Memo to all you holier-then-thou warriors out there: freedom of religion means you are free to practice your religion - but only on yourself.
You are not free to practice it on anyone else - and that includes your own family, if they don't want it.
Comment by Ahmed
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Comment by Anonymous
Being pregnant is not due physical condition??? thats not just cynical its wrong. Does that mean none of us are meant to exist and are all just a result of malfunction when our mothers werent in due physical condition?? Coz if thats really the line you wanna take you have thousands of years of human existence to argue with...
That comment before was a different anon btw, but i agree so attack away.
Comment by Anonymous
yeah and your so open minded!!!!! That sweeping generalisation applies to very few if any. And the discussion is about the fact that SHE should not have forced her non beliefs on the pharmicist who would have been forced to practice her beliefs rather than his own if you had your way. he didnt stop her from having an abortion he just didnt help her.
And when did i say anything was God's opinion??? Did u just see a discussion about religion and copy and paste the generic arguement from somewhere else???
At least make your comments relevant if they have to be so predictable and non-sensical.
Comment by RubySoho
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Pregnancy is a wonderful condition to be in if the woman wants to be pregnant. But the thing is, sometimes she doesn't. Allow me to be callous here but really in those instances, it's like a parasite feeding off you. That's how some unhappily pregnant women have described it. But of course, being a male you never have to worry about that do you? So easy for you to sit and judge.
Comment by Ahmed
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This is why I don't take your side, Ruby.
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Comment by Ahmed
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And you have bitterly divided it into a male vs female thing.
*sigh* ever occur to you just because they are in some sort of desperate circumstance does not make them immune to exaggerating?
Comment by Anonymous
Exaclty my point. it is not a disease or illness that needs to be cured. It is an unwanted condition yes (how anyone could be so cruel as to call their own child unwanted i dont know, but im not judging people's feelings), but not a physical ailment and doesnt render her anything other than in due physical condition. Wants and needs are different.
there are no wanted and unwanted headaches or cancers, they are all unwanted because they are ailments, diseases, sicknesses. Pregnancy is a natural condition that works for the human race not against it
Comment by Doug Pollard
Rainbow Reporter
Freshly Doug
The doctor must treat the patient, regardless of who they may be - a murderer or a saint - and if he or she prescribes a treatment, even if they don't agree with it, the pharmacist dispenses it.
If it's an over the counter drug, only issues they can raise are strictly medical, like a potential allergy, reaction, interaction etc.The rest is none of their business.
If they don't like it,they should go get another job. It's grossly unprofessional to bring personal opinions into the job.
Comment by RubySoho
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Actually no, the discussion has been about whether or not religious people should practice professions that may require them to perform functions that are contrary to their beliefs. If the answer is yes, then that means that religion always wins. Ergo, it enforces it beliefs onto non-believers.
We have all pointed out to you time and time again that the pharmacists manual explicitly states that employees are not to deny medication to customers based on their religious beliefs. That is what the pharmacist did. That's why he was fired.
Also, it wasn't an abortion pill he denied her but a contraceptive pill. Which make his actions all the more perplexing.
Comment by Ahmed
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Within the law does a pharmacist have a right to open a store and not sell morning after pills? If the answer is yes then the answer is yes, he has every to choose what he sells, it's his store and his business.
If there is some grand law which specifically states 'pharmacists must sell at least one of each of these goods otherwise they lose their license' then you have something, but to needlessly parrot around the idea the woman has a 'right' is pointless, she can have a right to do anything she wants, it doesn't mean there is a law or obligation on the part of the pharmacist to give her a means to achieve that right.
Comment by RubySoho
Music Zone
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there are no wanted and unwanted headaches or cancers, they are all unwanted because they are ailments, diseases, sicknesses. Pregnancy is a natural condition that works for the human race not against it
Oh could you be more judgemental? Yes, sometimes pregnancies are unwanted. As in the woman does not want to be pregnant. Does not want to be a mother. Does not want all the changes to her life that pregnancy entails.
You contradict yourself calling these women cruel and then denying that you are judging them. I have never been pregnant but I have had a few late periods and let me tell you, it's terrifying and the last thing I was thinking of was knitting booties and picking out baby names.
And yes, generally speaking, pregnancy has acted in the interests of the human race. But we are hardly likely to die out anytime soon. Not every pregnancy has to result in childbirth in order to ensure the survival of our species. If anything it is probably in our best interests to ease up on the begetting.
Comment by Anonymous
Comment by RubySoho
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If only certain people would pay as much attention to the medical profession as they do to their mythological books of ancient desert prejudices.
Comment by Doug Pollard
Rainbow Reporter
Freshly Doug
Besides which, as Ruby points out, there are already way too many people on the planet. Practicing restraint in creating any news ones is highly responsible and ethical on a planet with diminishing resources - preventing someone from practicing such restraint on the basis of your personal opinions is a much more immoral act.
Comment by Anonymous
Comment by Anonymous
Comment by Anonymous
Anon, you picked a small part of a larger definition to suit your needs.
Ruby, you jumped on your moral high horse and slammed me without properly reading it because you saw the name Anon.
None of this should make any difference to why the quoted pharmacists above were fired. They didn't follow the requirements of their employer as set out by their employer when they were hired. Anyone that does that whether they work in a pharmacy or MacDonalds should be fired.
You are each using this platform to preach at the other side. There was no discrimination in that case. They breached the rules of their employer so they were fired.
JC
Comment by RubySoho
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The difference is you and I share common characteristics that zygotes and emrbyo's don't. Namely self awareness and sensory perception. Consciousness. A zygote really is just a clump of cells.
Comment by RubySoho
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Comment by Anonymous
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i dont know if you missed what i asked you before or chose not to answer but ill repost it anyway because i am genuinely interested in your views:
(ill presume all the anon comments are the same person, correct me if im wrong)
thankyou for providing another christian/pro-life perspective . . . i would love to know more about your opinions:
do you believe a christian/pro-life pharmacist should not handle any type of contraceptives at all?
do you think being pro-life is related to being part of the christian religion?
if a non-religious or atheist person was politically pro-life pharmacist should they be given ethical concessions at work outside of the umbrella of religious tolerance?
do you define "helping" someone take contraceptives as putting the box in their hand, or would stacking the shelves in a pharmacy that stocked contraceptives also be helping?
would a christian/pro-life pharmacist be able to refer the customer to a colleague in good conscience?
Comment by RubySoho
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Comment by Morgan Bell
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thanks for signing off with some initials so we can tell the Anons apart, and thanks for your definitions, i think contraceptive drugs come under the umbrella of "medications" for pharmacists, but the variety of dictionary definitions is very interesting
Comment by Anonymous
(ill presume all the anon comments are the same person, correct me if im wrong)
thankyou for providing another christian/pro-life perspective . . . i would love to know more about your opinions:
do you believe a christian/pro-life pharmacist should not handle any type of contraceptives at all?
do you think being pro-life is related to being part of the christian religion?
if a non-religious or atheist person was politically pro-life pharmacist should they be given ethical concessions at work outside of the umbrella of religious tolerance?
do you define "helping" someone take contraceptives as putting the box in their hand, or would stacking the shelves in a pharmacy that stocked contraceptives also be helping?
would a christian/pro-life pharmacist be able to refer the customer to a colleague in good conscience?
You make some interesting points and have made me think, first time in this discussion so thanks! lol.
Um well first of all, someone couldnt be politically pro lfe without agreeing with the religious principles even if not the religion as a whole, so yes they deserve the same concessions, all beliefs are wrth the same.
Contraceptives are an issue im not toooo sure about. Its not killing like abortion is, it is preventing the life from beginning in the first place. I still believe this is wrong but it is so widely accepted and not as bad as murder that it is probably unavoidable- by me though Its important to remember that as much as the church has teachings, all christians are individuals.
In terms of helping someone to get abortion or morning aftre pills, i would say that making the cardboard for the box as too close. Its about intentions in christianity not actions.
Thanks for a genuine interest and accepting the diversity morgan. I knw u dont agree but its good you are interested unlike others
Comment by Kleonaptra
Kalikapsychosis
Dont worry - they arent thrown out like garbage, they get another shot next time, whether they choose a new set of parents or hang out for the same lot.
And children ARE a disease - the entirety of the human race is a disease. Im disgusted to be human.
Not that dog is my first choice.
But dont worry, theres a cure. The Earth is in the process of shaking us off like fleas this very second. We're so busy talking about it we'll never actually notice. Thank the Lord Im going to be Left Below.
Comment by Morgan Bell
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i found an interesting site that has documented the Church's changing position on abortion over the centuries
Pope Gregory XIV (1535-1591) revoked the Papal bull shortly after taking office in 1591. He reinstated the "quickening" test, which he determined happened 116 days into pregnancy (16½ weeks).
i also found the US Bureau of Labor Statistics occupational outlook which says a pharmacists role is to distribute prescription drugs and dispense medications
Really Long Link
the ASHP says:
"Pharmacists are health professionals who assist individuals in making the best use of medications."
Really Long Link
and the morning after pill is considered a contraceptive and a medication
LEVONORGESTREL - ORAL (Plan B)
"This medication is used to help prevent pregnancy in women who have had unprotected sex (intercourse) or suspect a failure in their current form of birth control (e.g., broken condom). It is not intended to be used for routine birth control and will not stop an existing pregnancy (abortion)."
Really Long Link
Comment by Morgan Bell
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at least people out there are still thinking about right and wrong, solutions and compromise etc
it seems to me that state laws, religious instruction, morals, ethics, codes of conduct, and personal interpretations are all constantly evolving . . . i only wonder if we will ever find that perfect balance, that elusive harmony, where tolerance for all parties is embraced and diversity is truly respected?
Comment by Cheryl J
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You're right, things will always evolve and change with the complexities of humans and their issues. There will always be conflict and unfortunately, as much as we want harmony, it is not really in human nature. I don't think a balance will ever be struck on the contentious issue of what constitutes life and what is ethical and moral. There will always be opposing points of view with both sides claiming moral victory over the other. And I have no doubt laws will consistently evolve and change along with it, sometimes in a forward direction, sometimes in a backward direction depending on whose viewpoint you are looking from.
The way I see it is if laws are passed we follow them. If we think they are wrong we lobby to have them changed but I think if there are to be things such as conscience clauses which allow medical personnel to opt out of treatments that are a fundamental right for citizens to have, then it's up to the government to come up with alternatives so that cases of women in rural areas who have a legal right to birth control or abortion but limited resources and nobody to source these services from don't occur.
If they are making laws to protect a person's right to obtain medications and procedures then they have to find a way so these women are not put at a disadvantage. Maybe that's what we should be lobbying for.
Regardless, reading everyone's perspective has been interesting to say the least. Like the others I think I have right on my side for my beliefs but life is not, and never will be, completely black and white no matter how much you see things that way. Life is many shades of grey as are humans.
This at least hopefully has people seeing where the other side is coming from even if they don't agree with it. I would hope as human beings we could all , if not walk a mile in someone's shoes, maybe at least try those shoes on.
It has been an interesting discussion which did unfortunately start to get narky in parts but at least it's being discussed. While these issues are being swept under the rug things are happening that we may not be aware of and if we are passionate enough about our side of the argument to stand up for our beliefs we can at least say we've made some sort of progress.
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very eloquently put
all we can do is stay open to new information
thanks for the excellent summary!
Comment by RubySoho
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And Morgan, I know you meant it in the best possible way but my body is not up for compromise.
The very fact that some man I have never meant thinks he can tell me what I can do with my uterus is so utterly beyond comprehension it fills me with more misery than you will ever know. I will spend the rest of my life campaigning for the rights of women. Nothing, nothing, nothing even comes close in importance to that.
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oh i would never compromise my own personal reproductive rights either, i was referring more to the big picture of accomodating the religious sensitivities of others while maintaining ones own individual rights
eg: if there were two pharmacies in every town i wouldnt care at all if one was a pro-life pharmacy, or had a pro-life counter etc
i think similarly about smoking laws, i dont think non-smokers should be subjected to passive smoke in every venue but i dont see the problem with specialty smoking clubs where members and employees understand the risks of the environment they are entering before they walk in the door
Comment by Kleonaptra
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THANKYOU Morgan! Ive been wanting to open 'The Smokey Pub' for years! I think its despicable that I respect non smokers but they cant respect me!
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well if they do it in europe . . .
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But i view attacks on other people's, particularly other women's rights as indirect attacks on my rights. In most of Latin America ALL abortion, even in the case of rape is illegal. The penalty is a murder conviction and prison time. Abortion in Ireland is Illegal. Let's not even get started on the Muslim world.
And this is the extent to which women's rights have been depleted in America. The following extract is from salon.com. Welcome to no-choice America:
Working strategically within the boundaries of the law, antiabortion activists have managed, in many states, to restrict abortions and abortion clinics so aggressively that abortion-rights activists say that conditions are as bad as they were before Roe v. Wade passed in 1973.
In Mississippi, the antiabortion movement has managed to close down all but one abortion clinic. And by requiring women to go to the clinic twice, once for information and counseling, and a second time for the procedure, which must take place at least 24 hours later, women who drive from other locations in the state have to make two trips or spend the night in town. For women who can't afford the money or time off from work, these obstacles are likely to seal their fates.
"We don't feel bad that people in the delta can't have an abortion," says Terri Herring, president of Pro-Life Mississippi. "To say that we want to be sure that poor women can get their abortions, like we're doing them a favor by helping them kill their baby, is just not OK with me."
But do the sentiments of one antiabortion activist say anything about the position of state officials? Apparently so: Mississippi actually sells license plates that say "Choose Life" on them, with all proceeds going to Crisis Pregnancy Centers. What can women get at these centers, 2,000 of which exist nationwide? Free pregnancy tests, confidential counseling, free ultrasounds so the women can see their unborn children, and free baby clothes. What can't they get? Free birth control or birth control counseling, information on where to get an abortion, or free prenatal care.
"The purpose of the center is to deal with the woman who has an unplanned pregnancy, and her choices are abortion, adoption, parenting. She has basically those three choices," says a representative of one center. Of course, if the woman "chooses" abortion -- or even wants to consider a way to not get pregnant the next time -- she's out of luck.
That doesn't stop antiabortion activists from claiming that they're interested in helping these mothers and their babies. Just so we understand where all of these very compassionate people are leading Mississippi, we visit a town called Clarksdale, where 75 percent of babies are born to single mothers, many of whom are teenagers, and more than one-third of the population lives in poverty. When the "Frontline" producers ask a young mother about access to abortion, she has a look on her face as if he just asked, "Have you ever thought of summering in the South of France instead?"
For those who are foolish enough, as I was, to believe not only that Roe v. Wade won't be overturned but also that things will be fine as long as that doesn't happen, "The Last Abortion Clinic" offers a sobering look at the reality in most states, where local governments seem to care very little about the impossible circumstances poor women face in dealing with an unwanted pregnancy.
But no one has a firmer grasp on just how bad it is for these women than the head of an abortion clinic in a neighboring state, whose identity is withheld for her safety and the safety of her clinic. "Sometimes I fantasize about Roe being overturned, because then I think that there would be this real threat, this real enemy," she says. "As long as everything flies below the radar, never an all-out attack, I think that most women and men are asleep. I don't think they realize what's going on. The assault on abortion rights is very clever. It's very smart. And we're losing."
yeah, that's how they are doing it now. they can't change the law so they are purposefully making it as difficult as possible for women to access birth control and abortion. And as is so often the case, it's the poor that take the brunt of the injustice.
Choose life everybody! we will do our damndest to ensure it's a miserable life but choose life nonetheless.
Comment by Morgan Bell
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thanks for all that info, i had not heard any of that before, it puts the behaviour of pro-life pharmacists in a whole different light . . . it is always the poor that suffer once choices start being removed
it has always amazed me that people who are anti-abortion are also anti-contraception and anti-sex-ed when those two things could reduce the need for abortion dramatically
and it sounds like theyre not teaching their sons to be very responsible with the high rate of single mums . . . being a young woman in mississippi must be terrible
is "The Last Abortion Clinic" a film or a program?
Comment by RubySoho
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I fear for the future. I really do.
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Comment by Anonymous
Do what you want with your uterus i couldnt care less beacause you have the right to make a choice for your own body, what anti-lifers never understand is that by killing the unborn they are making a choice for someone elses body- the child's. They are killing someone else for their own choice, this would never be accepted in society but somehow its ok because you cant see the person in front of you
Comment by RubySoho
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That's what it comes down to. You can cry about the rights of an undeveloped fetus who can't feel pain, has no thoughts or wishes or desires. Who does not even know it is alive.
Or you can support the rights of the woman who has all that and so much more.
Not once, not once on this thread have you ever, ever EVER expressed anything remotely resembling any sort of sympathy or empathy for the woman Morgan discussed in the post. The woman who was raped and fell pregnant by her attacker. That woman was seeking emergency contraception which means that the rape had occurred within two days of that visit to the pharmacy. Not once have you even stopped to think about what she must have been going through at that time.
No, all you could do was point the finger at her and pretty much call her a murderer. Isn't it funny how the minute a woman gets pregnant she becomes nothing but a vessel, an incubator. All of a sudden what she wants just does not matter anymore. even if her pregnancy is the result of sexual activity she did not invite.
Well you can cry for the clump of cells. I cry for the living, breathing human being I see "in front of me".
You choose the fetus. I choose the woman.
Comment by Summer
Comment by Kleonaptra
Kalikapsychosis
I do choose life. Mine. Im also clapping for ya Ruby.....
Thank God we live in Australia! Remember when Tony Abbott mentioned he wanted to make abortion illegal? The Womans Libbers stormed the city!
Comment by Anonymous
Exactly, its a choice about whether the womens emotions are more important than someone else's life. And i do feel for the women, i cant ever understand what it would be like to be raped and noone can. Im not judgin her, what i've consistently said throughout this debate is that the pharmicist cannot be obliged to do what HE thinks is murder. And i do think it is murder. I know you hate it but no matter how awful it is for her for nine months, she will love the human that comes out of her after its all said and done. And it doesnt matter how bad her experience, it is never more important than a human life.
And no matter how it is described if the pill is taken after sex, its not stopping you from becoming pregnant it is stopping the pregnancy from developing further
Comment by Jeff Musall
Secular Humanity
If Obama wins look for some in that group to be de-moralized and fade. Look for others to throw themselves even more into extremism.
If McCain wins, America as a nation has decided there is nothing wrong with what it has been doing. We will have crossed a threshold of tacit approval for the evils done.
In alot of ways, this election is like going "all in" while playing poker. And while it will most affect America, the world will pay a price too.
Comment by RubySoho
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There you have it folks. That's what the anti-choice lobby thinks of women. Nothing we ever go through is as important as saving the life of a clump of cells.
Rape us. Beat us. Take away our rights. It doesn't matter. The only thing that matters is the fact that we can make babies.
I'm going away for the weekend and Anon I am going to do my best to try and forget I had this conversation with you. You make me feel quite ill.
Thanks for everyone who argued with me on this. I apologise if I got a a little carried away at times.
But before I go here is a little food for thought from the Bible:
ISAIAH 13. King James version:
[I]9 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it.
10 For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine.
11 And I will punish the world for their evil, and the wicked for their iniquity; and I will cause the arrogancy of the proud to cease, and will lay low the haughtiness of the terrible.
12 I will make a man more precious than fine gold; even a man than the golden wedge of Ophir.
13 Therefore I will shake the heavens, and the earth shall remove out of her place, in the wrath of the LORD of hosts, and in the day of his fierce anger.
14 And it shall be as the chased roe, and as a sheep that no man taketh up: they shall every man turn to his own people, and flee every one into his own land.
15 Every one that is found shall be thrust through; and every one that is joined unto them shall fall by the sword.
16 Their children also shall be dashed to pieces before their eyes; their houses shall be spoiled, and their wives ravished.
17 Behold, I will stir up the Medes against them, which shall not regard silver; and as for gold, they shall not delight in it.
18 Their bows also shall dash the young men to pieces; and they shall have no pity on the fruit of the womb; their eyes shall not spare children.
/I]
No pity on the fruit of the womb. Says God. Ravish the women. Says God.
No wonder you hate women. If this is where you look for guidance.
Comment by Ahmed
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In all fairness the pro-choice seem to be equating fetuses with parasites...
It's funny how it blanaces itself out...
Comment by Morgan Bell
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fertilization can occur anytime live sperm meet up with a live egg, sperm can last 5-7 days in the fallopian tubes waiting for the woman to ovulate . . . fertilization can happen even if the sperm are deposited up to seven days in advance of ovulation
the morning after pill (Plan B) is designed to prevent ovulation . . . women usually only ovulate once a month, releasing one egg which only lasts for one day
a secondary effect of oral contraceptives (The Pill) and the morning after pill (Plan B) is that they thin the uterus lining preventing fertilized eggs from implanting
neither The Pill or Plan B would have an effect on pregnancy if taken after implantation
Comment by Summer
When you get back from finishing 7th grade and pass the basic human biology class then we can talk about what is and is not abortion.
Comment by Doug Pollard
Rainbow Reporter
Freshly Doug
The woman will never know she has been, at least nominally, pregnant for a few days. More foetuses self-abort quite naturally than ever implant, grow or thrive.
All this pill does is tip the balance in favour of this outcome. It does not kill a 'person', because at this very early stage there is no person to kill, nothing that could possibly survive independent of the mother, nothing with the equipment to even begin to have a consciousness. Just a small clump of cells, as has been said, which might or might not go on to become a viable foetus and, much later, a potential person.
More foetuses self-abort (miscarry) later in the pregnancy because they are in some way damaged or otherwise unviable, and the mother's body discards them - again, quite naturally.
There's no huge outcry that we don't 'save' these 'people' - because they're not. At best, they were POTENTIAL people, potential, sadly, that was never destined to be realised.
I don't like abortion (not that, as a man, it has much to do with me), but I have never known a woman who had an abortion without regret and personal distress, so it's hardly charitable or humane to pile a woman who makes this difficult choice with guilt etc., especially if she's already suffering the anguish of having been raped. That level of calllousness cannot under any circumstances be called Christian, which is supposed to be a religion of compassion.
Our concern should be with the already living person, not the potential one.
Late term abortion is another matter altogether - by then the child is potentially viable, and has some consciousness. But that's not what we're talking about here.
Comment by Morgan Bell
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there are so many factors upon which fertilisation depends on and the probability of any one sex act resulting in fertilisation is actually quite low
there is another 8 days between fertilisation and implantation
if you wants to see some amazing photos of first trimester biology CLICKHERE for the work of Lennart Nilsson
hi Doug,
you raise some excellent points!
most women dont announce their pregnancy until after the first trimester as there is such uncertainty of survival in the early stages of development, but we dont go around accusing women of accidental manslaughter when they miscarry . . . that would be incredibly insensitive . . . to save every egg that is ever fertised seems like an impossible and pointless task . . . if you want to save children i would suggest feeding one of the starving ones in africa or investing in AIDS research
i think it is generally accepted that the primary function of contraception (including the morning after pill) is not abortion and i would actually be really concerned about people working in medical fields that think that it is . . . the primary function is to prevent ovulation and i think women use them in good faith as a preventative measure . . . a responsible person that wanted to reduce the incidence of actual abortion would surely encourage these methods of birth control
Comment by Jeff Musall
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Comment by Anonymous
This is not fact. First of all it is a debate about whether a feotues is a person. There are lots of THEORIES but no concrete proof either way. But i must point out the acknowledgment in this quote- how can something die if it was never alive?
Comment by RubySoho
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It's funny how it blanaces itself out...
No Ahmed, I was just trying to show how an unwanted pregnancy feels to a woman who is going through it. She has something inside her that she does not want there. yes, I know it's her fetus, and in most circumstances it's a cause for celebration, but if she does not want it there, it does not feel like a baby to her. It's not something she wants.
And no, it does not balance itself out. It does not even come close to balancing itself out. Until you get pregnant or think you may be pregnant at a time that is not right for you, then don't you even think you can for a moment comprehend what that feels like.
You know what, i'm going to alienate about a thousand people here but I'm so sick of men having an opinion on this issue.
Come back to me after you have grown a uterus and have bled every month for the last 20 years.
Comment by Anonymous
Well then go live somewhere where there is a female dictatorship because this isnt tolerance at all. It is not tolerance to discriminate on whos opinion is meaningful on the basis of gender, just like it isnt on the basis of religion or race.
Comment by Doug Pollard
Rainbow Reporter
Freshly Doug
It is a fact, it's called a miscarriage, or, to be more accurate, a spontaneous abortion. The host body simply rejects and expels the foetus - a wholly natural process.
It can happen for many reasons, such as stress, poor nutrition, or no known reason at all.
Of course it had life, but not independent life. Until it is born sufficiently developed to survive outside the womb it is not an independent life, it is a part of the mother that is growing TOWARDS independent existence.
When a woman has an abortion, she does not end a life, she ends a POTENTIAL independent life.
Comment by RubySoho
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Comment by Anonymous
Ruby, are you that blind that you can't see how intolerant YOU YOURSELF are? You have tried to discredit my opinion now on both the basis of my religion and Gender without disputing the content of my comment. And yes when the contents of your uterus are a human being it is my business. You just dont get that some things are more important than individuals desire to do whatever they want.
Comment by RubySoho
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How dare you? Seriously how dare ask me to be tolerant of your opinion when your opinion is that I don't deserve to have control of my own body?
I respect your right to have an opinion, but that does not mean I have to respect your opinion, not when your opinion is a direct violation of my rights. Oh my god did anyone else's skin crawl when they read that? This is what he said:
And yes when the contents of your uterus are a human being it is my business
No point even trying to remain civil with you. Go to hell.
Comment by Anonymous
How tolerant. Learn to care about someone other than yourself
Comment by Summer Minor
The fact is Anon doesn't care one lick about "tolerance", he just wants the right to tell you what you can and cannot do with your body. Which is what it really boils down to. If you think any of them actually care about "the babies" I've got a bridge to sell you. It's about power and control, a point absolutely obvious by some stranger thinking he has any business abut another person's body. They are perfectly aware that a clump of cells is not a life, not a thinking, feeling, breathing, rational, human being. That's just the talking point they choose to use because they know if they were honest, like Anon above did, they would lose some of their support.
"The babies" don't matter. Controlling women and slut-shaming is their real agenda. And no one has to be tolerant of that.
Comment by RubySoho
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Poor Anon. Don't we all just feel for him. Big bad feminist woman won't tolerate his attempt to, oh you know, control her life.
I repeat, go to hell.
Hi Summer, I know its about control and Anon just proved it. I'm not one of those people who pretends that all opinions are equally worthwhile. I have no shame and no hesitation in declaring Anon's opinions on my uterus completely null and void. Of course, if any other woman out there would like to give Anon the key to her chastity belt, she is more than welcome, but I do prefer to be in control of my own life thank you very much.
Comment by Anonymous
How can you seriously think that u have some insight into my religion when you're comment above shows you are just a christian hater. No Summer, i am not into controlling women, i am not the humanised satan put on earth for "feminists" to unover, i DO care about the baby that you want to kill. You are a just a clump of cells to, just bigger and more of them. Whether or not u agree with pro-life stance, to suggest that none of us actually care about religion, morals and ethics is the most ridiculous thing i've ever heard.
Comment by Summer Minor
Of course not! What should you care about the child's health and well being after it is born. Just keep those women pregnant and their bodies in your control. For the babies? Ha! Only until they're born, then people like you couldn't care less.
Comment by Anonymous
Answer yes to all the above. My views stem from my christian religion and as a christian any women that camt to me in any of those circumstances would recieve my love and support, killing because its EASIER however is not an option. I actually counsel women after they've had abortions on a weekly basis. Its part of the program that my church runs. I care a lot about these women, i am not a politician and i never said that the foster system was in good condition. To make sweeping generalisations that no christians actually believe in what they are preaching only shows your ignorance and immaturity
Comment by RubySoho
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But yes, obviously you care about them.
And whether you like it or not, abortion IS an option. An option millions of women choose every year.
Comment by Cheryl J
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But if you genuinely supply NON-JUDGEMENTAL support to these women, I apologise and commend you for your work.
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do you think the women would go around assaulting the men and implanting eggs in them to gestate in their abdomens like arnold schwazengger in the film "Junior"?
or do you think they would let the men live peacefully and independantly and make their own choices?
Comment by Anonymous
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How many times can you contradict yourself in one sentence I wonder?
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CLICKHERE to view
Comment by Jim Clark
I am not a Christian (I do however have very strong Spiritual beliefs), and I abhor their views on Homosexuals. I agree that Christian's shouldn't feel that it is their right to preach Leviticus in their workplace. Out of their jobs, I would stand up for their right to free speech, despite firmly disagreeing with them (and actively seeking to prove them wrong).
I am Pro-Life however (although perhaps in a different way to the norm, I don't quite see it in Black & White) and to some degree I understand the moral dilemna facing a pharmacists being asked to dispense a morning after pill. I don't have any problem with Contraception, but I feel Abortion isn't an issue solely of womens rights, it's an issue of the rights of the unborn child/foetus, hence a human rights issue. Late term abortions are now being allowed very close to the age in which a child can survive in an artificial chamber, and in Canada I believe that Abortion is allowed right up until a child is born, meaning that the difference between the murder of a baby and a "medical procedure" is whether or not the child has been born.
Clearly a rape case makes it complex, but I find that rape cases are always brought up in relation to issues of Abortion. No one should ever have to go through such trauma, I believe that rapists should recieve automatic life sentences (the only grey area being statutory rape, depending on the age difference, ie an 18 year old sleeping with a 15 year old should not be treated or labelled the same as a rapist).
I agree that right-wing Christians that see it all in Black & White are polarized, but I see the same polarization occuring on the opposite side whereby many Feminists do not see the foetus as being an unborn being with it's own identity, often comparing it to a parasite.
Ok, question, do you think that Pharmacists should have the right to refuse abortive pills (as in RU486, I'm not sure on the current worldwide status on this, for the sake of this question, let's assume it was widely available for the same term as legal abortion) on moral grounds. Do not people with Pro-Life beliefs have a right to be a pharmacist without compromising their personal beliefs?
I admit abortion for Rape cases is a fuzzy moral area, and I think that if the womens life is in danger during childbirth then Abortion might be the correct moral choice.
Perhaps pharmacists could publically advertise that they will not pass out Abortion pills, so that those seeking such things avoid wasting their time. Surely, if this was the case then if someone felt they desperately needed such things they could go straight to someone that could help them.
I hope we can discuss this without any personal attacks, and with mutual respect, something that is missing from most debates on Abortion.
Thank you,
God Bless,
Hari Om,
Jim Clark
Comment by Morgan Bell
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the "morning after pill" (Plan B) is not the same thing as a medical abortion (RU486)
the former (Plan B) is classified as a contraceptive, no different to a high dose of The Pill, which is used in an emegency immediately after unsafe sex
the latter (RU486) is a completely different chemical called mifepristone which is only taken months after fertilisation when a pregnancy is well established
1) a pregnancy test has come back positive and the woman has been determined to be less than 9 weeks pregnant
2) she has been counseled about her options
and she has chosen to have a "medication abortion" rather than a surgical procedure.
if you dont have a problem with contraception you shouldnt have a problem with the morning after pill
in the case of RU486, a pharmacist should not be in the position of dispensing it anyway
however if you are talking about Pro-Life doctors, i believe their duty is to explain a womans options to her and refer her to a clinic or gynacologist if she seeks to terminate the pregnancy
if you are Pro-Life i would advise against a career specialising in female reproductive health or taking a job at an abortion clinic
Comment by samaritan
Fringe Faith
Samaritan's Stories
In relation to the birth control thing, I think that Christians should be allowed not to give birth control, if they have a strong religious objection for doing so. However, they should put signs up making it clear that's what they're doing and directing people where they can go to get birth control. I think in the case of the Kmart employee though, that as an employer, they really have to do what their employer says.
Also, I think people should be allowed to voice their objections against homosexuality. I don't like it the complete homophobic attitudes of many Christians - and I frequently argue about it with people. But at the same time, people should be able to say what they think without fear of getting fired. If someone expressed a view to me that Christians were all idiots and churches should be made illegal, that's their opinion. They have a right to it. But when your opinions actually trample on the rights of others is when I think steps have to be taken.
And to be honest, part of me thinks we should just let people express their views (even if they are discriminatory) because then at least we know where they're coming from.
Samaritan
Comment by Postmodern Critic
Postmodern Critic
Daily Inspirations
Relativity Watch
Padsoc
It is with good reason that people nowadays keep prejudices like this well-hidden: because it's not socially acceptable.
Comment by samaritan
Fringe Faith
Samaritan's Stories
I also know someone (a Christian) whose boss told him he hates Christians. And that's a pretty common thing for people to say. Why is that views like that don't have to be kept hidden? I've had the same thing said to me on a couple of occasions - but it was just socially and not in a work setting. I'd rather people be honest about hating the religious group I belong to, than keep it hidden and pretend they're okay with it.
I am someone who hates intolerance - of any kind. But I think the way you stop intolerant views is not from getting them not to speak about it - because those views are still there. You do it by reeducating people and showing them where their thinking is wrong - and you can only do that if you know what they're actually thinking in the first place.
And there were a lot of things you mentioned here that Christians did that were completely wrong. I don't think people should ever be allowed to put up bible verses or other material that makes homosexuals feel bad for example. Although, if it was me, I'd probably just blow up a big one that says pride is an abomination (which it is, according to the bible) and stick it on their computer screen or something.
Samaritan